Around and Around We Go

Magnolia_campbellii_flowersIt’s been more difficult to bounce back than I expected.

Bounce back from what?

Well, first of all from my appendicitis. Since surgery was so quick and easy, I thought I’d feel fine in a sec. It’s taken some time though, and I still feel tired. I think I’ll have to go and have a check up. I’m feeling slightly anemic.

Tamsin’s been keeping us up nights too. Stomach aches. 😦 Poor little pumpkin!

And it’s a bit difficult to reconnect with Mark.

I believe that when he’s with her, he promises things that he can’t keep once he’s back home. I believe she keeps pestering him to bring her back here somehow, and he says he will. Of course, he can’t. And as soon as he’s back in London, she starts badgering him to make good on his promises.

She texts him, e-mails him, tries to call him when he’s forgotten to turn his cell off. I’ve heard him talk to her – sometimes he sounds very angry, sometimes he tries to cajole her. I don’t understand enough Arabic to be able to make out everything he says, but I get the gist. It’s clear to me that he is, maybe not lying to her, but not telling her the entire truth either. And I know he feels guilty about it, about the whole situation.

So Mark is feeling bad. He misses her too I suppose. And he’s ridden by a guilty conscience, both because he’s hurting her and because he’s hurting me.

Sometimes, I just want to sit down and cry. Or run away from it all.

But here I am. Trying to comfort myself, not with chocolate as I’d like to, but with broccoli and cauliflower. 😦 Even if I’m a bit down, at least I don’t want to be anemic.

48 thoughts on “Around and Around We Go

  1. Hi Fiona,
    I hope you feel better. Surgeries are so technically advanced and quick now, that it is easy to forget how deeply invaded the body has been. Healing is not something we can really control with technology…

    From your descriptions, Bimbo has always sounded, well, just like the name she has been assigned. I wonder, if Mark had not assumed that you would always be there for him, would he have chosen her to be his only companion? I mean, does he realize what life with someone of limited capacity is like?

  2. 🙂

    You know Dale, I think it has dawned on him 😀 This funk he’s in now, maybe we can call it a “straitjacket-syndrome”? 😉

  3. lol!! “straightjacket-syndrome”

    i hope you feel better and things look up soon! 🙂

  4. Fiona,
    Can you please remind me why he cannot bring her back? Does she and Marks parents know about Graham and Tamsin. She is wrong to have married him for greed and to get a more comfortable life in UK but I think now again its more Mark’s fault to keep her hanging and not telling the truth that he can’t bring her here for whatever reason. Her texting, calling and all sounds totally normal to me. What else she has left to do. Its clear she married Mark to move to UK so maybe Mark knows that as soon as she realizes that he can’t bring her back then she and her parents will demand divorce. Mark is playing with her life and part of the reason is he cannot just come back to you and let her move on because now its you and Graham that he will come back to and that might not look like a good choice to him. I see that at the end she is getting the worst deal in the whole situation and the biggest fault or responsibility for creating the situation falls on Mark. He needs to do the right thing and let that girl move on and have a normal married life and kids.

  5. Since Mark and #2 can’t be legally married, he can’t bring her here as his wife. She first came here on a special permit, for basic education to prep for becoming a dentist :p There’s a special government plan for women from under developed nations who want to train for certain occupations. BUT – she managed to flunk and was kicked off the program, denied extended Visa and had to go home. She could come and visit on a temp Visa I suppose, but she has only ever travelled with a mahram and of course it’s a lot easier and cheaper for him to pop over to Oman.Mark’s parents know everything about Graham and Tamsin and have always supported me. They were extremely upset with Mark for what he did to me, and think that he deserves what he gets. (Mark’s mother is English, and his father grew up in the UK and was educated here). I don’t know how much #2 knows about me, Graham and Tamsin. Maybe nothing? Mark tells me as little as possible about their relationship. There’s a special license in islam for people who refrain from hurting somebody by avoiding telling the truth. He has told me that’s what he thinks he is doing. Of course he need to do the right thing. But HE has to do it – I can’t do it for him 😦

  6. Looks like my first comment didn’t go through and 2nd did. Mainly I wanted to say hope you feel better soon and I am glad you have Tamsin to take care of and that requires you taking good care of yourself. If you like fruit and veggie juices then it’s easy to mix a little broccoli or some greens. That’s how I eat greens or I add greens in my flat bread. I chop and slightly heat the greens with some water and blend it with some ginger and Thai pepper and use it to make a dough that I use for paratha (flat bread).
    Thanks for your reply. I knew your in laws were against his second marriage but I didn’t know that they are aware of Your other marriage. So Mark has lost a lot basically all of his important relations with you, his own parents, his kids will never be same.
    At this time i feel sympathy for the girl in Yemen. I doesn’t look like he is willing to leave her. What’s Graham’s position on the whole situation. He might be suffering too seeing you upset. Do you talk to him about you and Mark.

  7. Fiona,
    As happy as I am that Mark is left with the short end of the stick, his resentment of the situation may really start to affect you. Bringing Bimbo back may be a blessing in disguise -Mark can keep his sanity and the resentment won’t build. This is going to sound bad, but at least Bimbo is clueless, just kind of exists and not the brightest. You already know what she’s about. compared to if he were to dump her and find a nice intelligent lady in your area -which finding someone new in your area is sounding like the only solution as there’s no way to bring Bimbo back.

    I know thinking about everything just makes your head hurt. So don’t worry about things so much, there isn’t much you can do anyway, things will unfold their own way. Just keep positive. Things will get better. I do think you deserve a small box of chocolates, go for it! 🙂

  8. “There’s a special license in islam for people who refrain from hurting somebody by avoiding telling the truth.”

    And what does Islam say about people who avoid facing their own cowardice, self centeredness and mental confusion by saying “Look how strong, brave and magnanimous I am, I’m lying so I can protect someone else from pain.”

    I know what those secular French would say about it: “bad faith”. It’s a fraud on top of a fraud;

  9. Fiona,

    My appendix op really threw me too for about 4-5mths. I felt quite embarrassed because I thought kids have this procedure all the time and bounce back! Have a check up, get everything checked and your vital female levels like Vit D etc.

    Uncertainty breeds uncertainty. That seems to be your situation. Everything about Mark’s relationship with her is uncertain so naturally that “up in the air” situation impacts on your relationship with Mark. And probably impacts on your relationship with Graham by extension.

    When the time is right we make the decisions we need to make. And when we feel comfortable with those decisions, we know the time and choice was right.

    When we’re at the stage you are, feeling unsettled, it’s not quite the right time to make decisions. But you’re on a path that will become clearer with time.

    I think Mark is hanging on to her for all the wrong reasons. And it’s worse for her too. Do you think his emotional intelligence is low Fiona? The way he rationalises things makes me think that. Or is he getting advice from an idiot?

  10. I’m reading posts from another411 and maybe it’s good to hear polygamy works out for some. But deep down I can’t believe God made people with different rights. Since I’m part colored myself I cringe at the thought that somebody would claim that God made me for a certain kind of work or role in society due to the color of my skin, or gave somebody rights over me due to the color of my skin, and I know it’s been a reality that people have claimed that and today some people still do! And the more I have studied Islam the more I see that I can’t buy that Allah would have done to women what I can’t buy that he would have done to coloreds. No I believe Fiona’s right. We’re all equal. So another411, do you think your husband would be able to share you and want for his brother what he wants for himself? I’m not suggesting you want that, or even need to believe in equality, but I’m thinking I would never never be able to say to the partner in my life that I’ll accept sharing you with another woman and being a widow for half the rest of my life without you at least in theory being able to do the same.

  11. Sisters please tell me what I can do. I am now 6 months in polygamy since husband took new wife and it is not getting better. I can not be intimate with him he is dirty to me and I can not do it. I feel he is dirty all over and in soul too because he is not chaste with me. I know marriage is allowed to this other woman but to me he is dirty and when I must touch him it feels like touching a rat or a cockroch. I can not hide it and he is angry with me because I can not hide it and I don’t know what do. And I can’t live this. And I can’t get the nasty pictures in my head away. Please tell me how you can live this and how I can not feel so about husband. Thank you.

  12. I KNOW he is getting advice from an idiot.
    Ever since he got us off on this polygamy trip, I know that he visits islamic websites – islamweb, islamqa, ummah forum – you name it. It’s like heroin to him. When I was almost dying from the initial pain of polygyny, he want on these fora to calm himself and find support, and to read that he as a man had a right to polygyny, a right over me and that I would eventually be a much happier wife because he decided to go off and fuck another “woman”. Yeah. the islamic websites are like heroin to him. I can still see from the webhistory that he visits them. And now of course, he is finding justification there – he has a right to polygyny, he has a right to lie to #2, he has a right to keep her if he just visits her every four months, she must obey him…. Whenever he starts thinking like a real human being about this, he just goes to islamweb or islamqa and gets a shot of “male superiority”-heroin.

  13. Hi Erendina and wwillow,

    Willow im so sorry for your situation. I hope your husband realises your rejection is a direct result of him forcing polygamy onto you. I hope he feels bad for hurting you. He would have gone into polygamy thinking you would come to accept it. 6mths later you still cant. Do you have kids? Do you want to stay married? Have you told him how you feel? What are your options? So much depends on where you live and your family etc.

    Fiona, I had a horrid flashback as I read your post about mark. The same way women went to 411 and got fed “halal just accept it”, Mark goes to those sites and it reinforces he cant be wrong. Man oh man.

    When did human beings stop listening to their instinct when something feels right or wrong?

    Fiona throughout your 20+ years marriage did Mark rely on you alot for advice? Then he blunders into polygamy and cant get your advice anymore because you’re not impartial? He must be a very lonely man most of the time. And I doubt he has much peace in his heart.

    Sometimes I think he holds you back, stuck in this polygamy wheel. If you were to divorce him, even if she then comes to the UK who on earth are they going to socialise with? She was always just an “extra” for him never a “replacement” so he’d be stuck then as Dale mentioned I think. She could get residence then divorce him anyway when she finds out he cant have kids. So many “what ifs”.

  14. I feel someone really needs to have experienced polygamy to advise on it. Im not in polygamy so im of limited use here to be honest.

    I bet many of those men/women giving advice on the islamic websites havent experienced it either and are equally limited in the usefulness of their advice.

    The imam’s wife where we live is forever encouraging other women into polygamy… long as its not with HER husband!!!! She won’t let him out of her sight. If he even breathed the word polygamy she would probably die on the spot.

  15. That’s one of the main problems when religion preaches something that goes against natural instincts and ethics. Unilateral polygyny goes against all instincts, all natural ethics. This is why it must be reinforced by religion and scholars. It doesn’t take brainwashing to make people follow their instincts – we only need manipulation when we are asked to do that which is unnatural. This is why all women here who are in islamic polygyny tells us about initial pain, revulsion and then talk about how reading up on islamic material made them (sometimes) come to terms with polygyny. Much the same way Germans tried to cope with living neighbours with concentrationscamps.

  16. That is often the case. Or, as in the case with Ana, women in forced polygyny become abusers – just like men who have been sexually abused in childhood often become abusers themselves.

  17. @lifeisgood

    Thank you for answer yes I have a son is a year old so no I can’t leave I must stay in this marriage also have nowhere else to go. I was wanting advice how to think and put myself in mental state to be able to see my husband without see him with the other woman. I feel like he is cheating me even if I know their wedding is hala it still feels dirty and nasty to me. And I can always not think that he is with me I always think he is thinking of her that he is cheating me in his mind. And I don’t want to touch him. How did you overcome feelings sisters?

  18. Fiona,

    I rememeber when I first started reading your blog, that it almost came across like you gained a certain level of pleasure in observing Mark’s suffering when dealing with the polygamy mess he created. In fact, at times it seemed you often used this against him at various times just to make him hurt.

    I admit that when I read those entries, it made me upset because on the one hand, you claimed to have so much love for him. Yet you were willing to hurt him over and over out of revenge (although clearly loving someone you hurt is the cruxt of forced polygamy when a man is doing it also, I can understand your reaction on some level). I had hoped that eventually you might see that going that route didn’t make anything better for the dynamic at play, only for your pain.

    And I can say that in the more recent posts, I’ve noticed that you’ve spoken about Mark and his struggles with the polygamy in a much more compassionate way. You’re not referring to him in as vitriolic manner. I respect this growth in you very much. I’m not saying these things because I sympathize with Mark or his other wife or even with the choices you made by taking Graham into your life, but because for you to start letting go of the bitterness (consciously or not) is a huge and dynamic surrender that not many people in a similar situation would have the courage to do.

    That being said, do you think it’s not possible for other women in polygamy to be going through the same process, and coming to terms with their realities (as another411 claims to have done), without it necessarily being stockholming themselves? I don’t think you would attribute that phenomenon to your journey, would you? At least, I don’t see that that’s what you’ve been doing. So I guess I tend to think anyone could follow the same trend toward acceptance and peace even if they don’t equalize the situation by taking another husband as you have.

  19. Erendina, that’s a very good question, and I did ask my husband how he would feel/react if the shoe was on the other foot. He said, he’d have to deal with it and accept it, if it was part of the religion. And I would have to accept that his feelings are his, he may be angry with me, not want to have sex with me, jealousy, envy and the like. Something that worries my husband is that when Allah takes something away from you, He gives you something better. So he worries that Allah will give me something better, for example a different husband. It may be difficult for some to accept that men and woman have different rights and responsibilities, I’m sure a lot of woman would like to have multiple husbands, same as a lot of men would like to be taken care of (financially) and keep their money for themselves, or get a break from praying and fasting once a month, but it’s not like that in Islam. Sometimes we like what Allah has given us and sometimes we don’t. Do I like that my husband has another wife? No, do I accept it? Yes. Does he like to see me upset and angry? No, does he accept it? Yes. You spoke about black people not being equal to white people, in Islam there’s no such thing , black, white, purple or pink, one is not better than the other.

  20. Wwillow, I don’t think you can overcome those feelings. You can try to ignore them. You can tell yourself you don’t feel them.You can pretend this isn’t happening. But somewhere deep inside those feelings will always be there and by trying to overcome them you’re just going to hurt yourself worse.

    If you want to forgive him, that may help you. But you’d really want to forgive him and be willing to accept what that forgiveness may do to you, your son, and your future.

  21. Wwillow, firstly let me say, that what you feel is normal, do not feel guilty or sad that you find your husband repulsive at the moment. I’m quite angry with your husband for expecting you to just, welcome him home with a night in the bedroom. And for you to just forget that he has been intimate with someone else. It proves his insensitivity and lack of understanding. Although your husband is not responsible for your feelings he can and should understand them and act accordingly. Your husband is going to have to get used to the fact that your upset and don’t particularly like him at the moment. It may be that way for a long time. You may never like him or feel the same about him again. You may not be able to enjoy intimacy with him but you don’t have to feel this way forever. Now, I’m not saying that you should suppress your feelings, it helps to release them. I don’t know if you can or have told your husband how you feel. If you can’t, try writing a letter to him. Tell him your not ready for things to go back to normal. You have to accept that he’s re married and he has to accept how you act towards him.

    You sound as though you want to stay married to your husband. But you can make the intention to divorce. Divorce is not sinful.

    It’s an integral part of belief to believe that Allah is in control of everything, weather your going through a hardship or not. And to believe in the entire quran. And after hardship come ease, I don’t know of any time scale for when things become easy, for me it came quite quickly.

    Blogging is a good way to talk about how you feel, its anonymous and you get a lot of different views. Don’t be shy, just let it all out.

    Maybe you can fill us in on how it all came about, did he tell you before or after he re married. Did he lie, did he consult with you. Where do you live (country) did he marry a Muslim or someone of a different faith.

  22. I do see what you mean, jamylah. Yes, I am less hateful today, less full of pain. I feel sorry for him, and sometimes I can even feel sorry for her.
    But I don’t agree with your analogy. No, I don’t believe I could have been where I am today without, as you put it, equalizing matters. A slave can not be happy being a slave without accepting slavery. Not until he is free and equal can he forgive and move on. Had I been enchained by forced polygyny, I would not have been where I am now. So no, I don’t believe it is possible for a woman who can’t equalize matters to move on, a free spirit. She can only move on by accepting slavery.

    It’s funny, when reading another411’s posts I find myself thinking about how I would have dealt with the situation and I realize that I could never have found myself in her situation. Why? Because I’m too much RC to ever have considered marrying a divorced man, or a man with children with another woman who is still alive. Funny isn’t it, from an agnostic like myself?

  23. When my husband told me he had become polygamous, I asked him the same thing. What would you have done if the shoe were on the other foot? I think most women in that situation do. My husband too said that he would have accepted it. He told me however that it was not women’s nature to be polygamous and that’s why Allah had given the right to men. But I can tell you another411 that the tune changed when I told him I had married a second husband! Ha!! No more talk about accepting then!! NOOO – he went totally apesh*t crazy! So whatever your husband says, I say don’t believe him. No way would he put on the yoke the way you do. Sorry.

  24. I looked up Stockholm syndrome, interesting, in some cases and not just polygany, it may be true. In my case, I never stopped loving my husband, I never hated him and I didn’t blame him so I never had to forgive him. Humans are not perfect, I expect that every human will for the most part think of themselves before thinking of others. Yes, Fiona one has to accept being a slave to accept slavery. Muslim know that we are Allah’s slaves, I am NOT a slave to any human or my own wants and desires. I am free of the chains of this world, I’m not chasing after anything that this world contains. So in that respect I’m FREE.

    It’s funny how your an agnostic, it answers a lot of questions. And I did not marry a divorced man, I was the first woman he married. Yes he did already have children, but that has its own benefits.

    If you don’t accept reality your deluded. You have to know the difference between what you want and what could happen and what is actually happening or happened. Or you can live in la la land

  25. wwillow

    IF you want to stay int the marriage you must talk to your husband about your feelings. Exactly what pictures are haunting you? Tell him about them! Many muslim men don’t understand that women have sexual fantasies just like them and that these fantasies can be extremely hurtful when polygyny is involved. Describe them, even if it is uncomfortable and embarrassing. He will never understand your pain and your reactions otherwise. And tell him when you feel you can’t touch him. He must know. You can not handle it if he doesn’t understand. And he will never understand if you don’t talk to him. Talking about intimacy with your spouse is encouraged in islam!

  26. I would never have married a man who had children out of wedlock either.
    Have you read about Heaven’s Gate? They believed they were free too.
    What reality is it I don’t accept? I sure don’t want to be deluded, so I’d like to know in what way I’m in lala land.

    I’m happy you’re happy though.

  27. I just had to look up heavens gate, on wiki. I had heard the story but didn’t know what it was called. Well I don’t think they had any proof of what they believed, so that’s what I would call blind following.

    I was speaking generally about realities and being deluded, it wasn’t specifically aimed at you. But with that said and now knowing your an agnostic. You believe that God cannot be proven. God is a reality.

  28. Another:
    “If you don’t accept reality your deluded. You have to know the difference between what you want and what could happen and what is actually happening or happened. Or you can live in la la land”

    Well said. This is true for all of us. I do think that reality is described in 2 poles. One talks about reality as objective, eternal and timeless, and predestined, and all that is said about it is an illusion. The opposite end pole talks about reality as ALSO subject to contributions by people through time. Within that pole there are almost endless subdivisions. I live in the second pole world.

    Polygamy appears to be a work in progress for you, and one that is moving forward. That’s great. Although there is obviously a different group of readers here than those found at Polygamy411, you really do not have to justify your choices to anyone here. I suggest taking what helps, contributing what helps others, and leaving the rest behind.

  29. Jamylah,
    I’m hoping Fiona will address your query of her. I’d like to myself, but I can’t at the moment. Unfortunately, with internet communication, there is a very brief period of time to respond to an idea, then the moment is gone, and it doesn’t wait.

    It seems that your main point is that some people can accept their situation in a rational fashion, and come to be at peace with what previously appeared as loss, and it is not by falling in love with the oppressor. Then you said “…I tend to think anyone could follow the same trend toward acceptance and peace…”

    I suppose some people accepted and came to a point of peace with their enslaved condition in the antebellum South. Does that therefore mean anyone can? I suppose a few people came to terms with life in a concentration camp, and went on to write treatises about it. Does that mean “anyone” can? This is a point of curiosity, but it still isn’t the main question from my standpoint. My standpoint has to do with what you choose for yourself, and how you go after it, not with how you put up with what you have to put up with.

    After I renovated my kitchen, the first thing every single person said who walked through the door, including all my close friends, was “why do you need 2 sinks.” First I tried to deal with the irritation. Then I tried to explain. Then I quit. I would instead say with just enough pique, “I don’t NEED 2 sinks I WANT 2 sinks.”

    Without responding to each and every thing you said, I found your entire post to be typically gender biased. ALL religious people, except pagan new age mother earth types, who have largely formed their thinking in reaction, have very specific ideas about what men are entitled to, and how women should function in relation to it. And if women are entitled to anything, it’s salvaging a few bits of dignity in a temporary world. Well not every single woman chooses to be an emotional furnace for a man, and not every single one of these women is a lesbian dyke. They still relate to men, and want men in their lives.

    What upsets most people who read this blog, and get upset to the point of expressing themselves, is the 2 husband bit. Well, they have missed the point entirely. They are also basically freaked out because one woman is refusing to play girl scout, and their campfire which she is supposed to tend might go out.

  30. Another411,

    In one of your posts you mentioned that willow’s husband is not responsible for her feelings or something similar.

    I read this alot at 411 and I find it hard to accept.

    Shouldn’t husbands and wives feels reciprocal responsibility for our spouse’s feelings? Especially when the actions of one impact on the others feelings.

    If a husband chooses polygamy shouldn’t he have some responsibility regarding his wife’s feelings?

    I understand it links with accepting what Islam makes halal, but does that absolve him of any responsibility for his wife’s pain?

  31. another 411, i just wanted to add that many women in US have accepted marital arrangement like yours when they found themselves in similar situation. For you the reasons were religious that you were able to accept this but others also accept similar arrangements for totally different reasons like poverty and no knowledge of other spouse or pretending no knowledge of existence of other partner/mistress for lack of other options or fear of divorce (I am aware of the prevalence especially in African American communities). In many cases both or one of the women in such situations are financially or overall very dependent on the man but it also happens where women are hard working (earn their own money) and men are good for nothing players taking advantage of both women.

  32. Dale,

    I really don’t see where you see any gender bias in my post. Only because I wasn’t talking about any genders at all, and most of it was directed at Fiona’s experience. The last general paragraph you were mainly talking about- I don’t know if you were reading too much into my use of the word ‘anyone’, I simply meant any other individual. I wasn’t saying that it was equally likely for every other individual, or that all have the same odds. Just that more than one person in the universe could do it, and hypothetically without engaging in polyandry.

    I don’t really have an issue with Fiona’s two husbands. It goes against what my religion teaches, and it’s something I would never do, but it doesn’t reallly bother me on any emotional level. The part I don’t get, though, is that I don’t see how it made her escape polygamy. If we’re using slavery as the analogy, she’s still a slave to Mark. He’s still keeping her in polygamy with his other wife. To me it’s the equivalent of a slave taking someone else as a slave and feeling better about the fact they themselves are a slave, but yet they remain under the shackles of their own master the whole while.

    If we’re looking at it as polygamy is an objectively bad thing, like slavery is an objectively bad thing, then the logic would be that the reasonable solution to the bad thing is to be free of it completely. Meaning slaves are freed, and women are divorced or kept in monogamy only. So to me, taking another husband while remaining as one of two (or more) wives to your first isn’t a real escape, it’s a coping mechanism just like any other.

    And to me that’s the whole gist of the disgruntled thing people are having about polygamy (including myself), is that no one wants to be in pain. Pain cannot be escaped in this life. In fact, there are many painful circumstances we can be forced into unwillingly- like losing a loved one, having a natural catastrophe occur, being in war, divorce, illiness, being harmed by another human being etc etc, and the bottom line is, we can’t change what may have happened, so the only choice is to find a way to cope with the pain of what’s occured. Funny thing though, in polygamy, there is the option to leave…it’s just most people don’t excercise it because they simply don’t want to take the greater pain of being in a situation apart from the man they’re with (for varying reasons). So they choose to cope with the option they percieve to be less painful than the alternative. I don’t see why that’s a bad thing, when the alternative option would be to remain bitter, begrudging, hateful, and emotionally tormented all the time.

  33. I see your point. To me however, slavery only exists if one is the master and one is the slave – they must be two people with different rights. To be slaves to one another is not “slavery”. This is why equal polygamy to me is something completely different to polygyny. Don’t you think jamylah that muslim men would think differently about polygamy, and handle polygamy differently, if they knew they had to grant their wives the right to polyandry if they choose polygyny? That being slaves to each other is different from being master and slave?
    I will never be able to understand how an intelligent person today can choose to believe there would be a god who would grant different rights to different people, based on gender, ethnicity, religion or skin colour.

  34. Yes I totally agree that if polyandry were permitted men would take more care in choosing polygamy than they do now. No doubt about that. But I think most women in polygamy who are ‘ok with it’ don’t see their husbands in a position of power as you understand it either. I’m not saying their view is correct, or yours is, it’s just what allows each party to go forward as they do.

    I think it will be difficult for people who have one set of values to understand another person’s set of values. Some people really don’t care about balances of power and all things being equal. Some people are ok with the idea that one gender is inherently superior to another. The reason for that is because people who are theists believe that every person is inferior to a deity, and there will never be a time when creation is equal to creator. The aim of a theist is to please the one who they are subject to, and doing whatever is necessary to foster the relationship they have with that deity- ABOVE ALL ELSE. I know that sounds ridiculous, immature and unintelligent to someone who doesn’t believe in deities, but that’s where the basic departure of philosophies roots from and where it will ultimately never be bridged.

  35. Jamylah, I lived your post, brilliant. Are you in a polyganous marriage.

    Lifeisgood. No, a woman’s feelings are her responsibility, likewise a man’s feelings are his. Even if the other seems to be the cause. People can react to the same situation in different ways. It’s not up to us how they react. However one should understand the others point of view and act accordingly. In the case of willow she feels disgusted with her husband, he can’t change her feelings for her, but he can be considerate and not try to have sex with her or be angry with her because she can’t or doesn’t want to hide it.

  36. Dale, I wasn’t justify anything, I was asked questions and I answered them, I had a point of view and expressed it. Maybe your reading too much into things.

  37. Right you are. “Some people are ok with the idea that one gender is inherently superior to another. The reason for that is because people who are theists believe that every person is inferior to a deity, and there will never be a time when creation is equal to creator.” Yes. And this is also why some people are ok with the idea that one race is inherently superior to another. Same thing. It astounds me that people who believe in one, don’t see that by doing so they legitimize the other.

  38. Fiona I can see how it looks that way. On the surface, it looks exactly the same. But to a theist, if their deity says one group is equal and another is not -regardless of how it seems to human logic- the logic of the deity is accepted as superior and adopted. In islam, men are said to be superior in certain ways. But in Islam, all races and ethnicities are equal. This is supposedly coming from the deity Allah, so everyone who ascribes to Islam chooses to believe this “fact” over what they see in their own view. This is how every religion works. Christians choose to believe that God came in the flesh as Jesus, even though it defies logic that a Creator can be at once created and uncreated at the same time. Someone who has never been a theist would not be familiar with the logical processes used by one. It will really seem like wonderland to them, and understandably they would not have any inclination toward it.

    This is why it’s very important for me personally to draw a line between people of each orientation and not hold expectations across boundaries. Fiona, for me you are as free to do whatever you like however you like and for whatever reasons you like. You are not a muslim, you are not under any law or rule except what you create for yourself. I can accept you and your way of life because you are doing exactly what you intend to do. I don’t need you to be any other way. But what’s interesting is, instead of allow us muslims the same freedom, you are trying to impose your views, your logic, your standards on our structure and say it’s right and better. That doesn’t seem equitable, to me.

  39. another411 I am not in any marriage at all lol, but I was in polygamy for 6 weeks of my life. I mentioned it on another thread here. I don’t even feel like it is worth bringing up because it was so aberrant from the usual polygamy discussed here. But I will never forget those 6 weeks, that’s for sure! Believe it or not, I don’t come here to argue or defend. I come here if anything, because Fiona’s life and events are interesting to me (much more interesting than my own life, anyway lol!) And if I see an opportunity to correct any misperceptions about what Muslims believe, I take the time to give the alternate view we subscribe to. I get shot down a lot, but it doesn’t bother me because I really don’t expect anyone to just accept what I have to say or understand it. I don’t need everyone to be in agreement with me (or I with them) to get along and have interesting discussions.

  40. I often hear that argued. it’s not true however that there is no racism in islam. Look here e.g. Since society has progressed further concerning racism than misogyny however, many apologetic muslims reason the way you do.
    Are there no matters where you feel it is necessary to speak up? Where people are tortured, used, abused because of some idea, some creed? Would you not want to scream loud and clear against satanists ritually killing children? I need to speak out against the horrible, sickening idea that a god would create one human inherently superior to another. No idea has created more pain and suffering in this world than the idea that one person has rights over another person. That one person is superior to another person.

    There is absolutely nothing a man can do that a woman can not do. I can pee standing up and burp out loud. I as a woman however can do one thing a man can not. I can bring new life into this world. If anything, does that not make me superior? 🙂 If religion was based on what god has given to make one excel the other, women would be considered superior! But no. Religion is based on the rights of muscle over brain.

  41. Oh jamylah, I’m sorry if you feel shot down. I do appreciate your posts and your willingness to discuss and explain – and show respect even when we disagree. I never want to shoot you down! H*ll girl, I’m trying to elevate you! 🙂

  42. Ok that link Fiona? That to me doesn’t represent Islam. It expresses someone’s personal or cultural bias. So I don’t accept that as proof of what you’re saying against the hadith you well know that all men are as equal as tooth on a comb.

    And I understand your part about speaking up. Honestly, I totally don’t have any issue with you saying what you do about the abuses of polygamy because I agree with you 100% that polygamy is being misused and abused and too many women and children are being unnecessarily oppresed.

    But I don’t think that’s the fault of religion or even the institution of polygamy, but of the people who are making horrible choices and using it to justify them! So yes that should be spoken against. But for me blaming muslims or islam for the abuses of polygamy is like blaming germans for the holocaust simply because they were german. The holocaust happened because of some corrupt people, not because people were german descent. Shit happens in polygamy because of corrupt people, not because they are muslim. I’m fairly certain the LDS polygamists have many of the same things going on.

    I don’t think there’s going to be any resolution to the view you have that God has made men superior to women and this is the cause of all problems, with the view that many muslims hold that God made men superior in SOME ways to women, and whatever problems exist is from them and not God. And that’s ok with me. By the way, I don’t mind “being shot down” lol or however we want to term it. If that had been a problem I’d have been long gone. I have noticed not even Saad has been commenting as much of late.

  43. Something that reeeeaaaalllllyyyy annoys me is people who speak without knowledge. They grab a hadith or ayat and run with it. Take for example the hadith that Fiona posted about a husband lying to his wife, as far as I know no hadith is two sentences long, moreover the rest of that particular hadith adds that a wife can lie to her husband (with the arrangement of words (wife and husband)), now I don’t understand this hadith to give a full explanation, but I did ask my husband. He said he remembers it being brought up in a lesson. The question was posed to the teacher “if your wife cooks some food and you don’t like it, can you say you do” the teacher answered NO. Insha’allah I’m going to get a full explanation and get back to you all. Now I don’t blame Fiona or any other non Muslim for the lies and misconceptions about Islam, for the most part it’s so called scholars, and whoever that person is in the link Fiona provided above. And it is they who should be extremely worried for bs that comes out of their mouths and put all over the Internet.

  44. I’m glad you’re not offended. I don’t want to offend, but I do like to discuss. No, I don’t blame all Germans for the holocaust, but I do blame all nazis. I don’t hold a person responsible for her descent. I do hold her responsible for her beliefs. And evil does not reign when evil people to do evil things, but when good people stay silent.

  45. Thanks Another for your reply.

    I agree with you Jamelya that Ialam itself is not racist. I see nothing in the Quran indicating racism.

    However racism has been rife in muslim cimmunities I’ve been involved in over the years. Cultures not mixing, cultures thinking they are superior, the way men pounce on a fair skinned revert especially if she’s blonde! I even believe fair skinned children are showered with more praise of being beautiful.

    I guess it is cultural. But it’s far more prevalent amongst my muslim friends than non-muslim.

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