Pakistan, Jam and Roses

JALDECJOKERWe have had many great discussions here, and not only about polygamy.

I’m glad.

It’s is so much easier to talk about the big things if we’re also able to chat about the small things. 🙂

Big: I read this the other day. I wish somebody could explain to me how this could happen. http://tribune.com.pk/story/734966/on-the-rocks-husband-burns-wife-after-quarrel/

Small:

This is how I make strawberry preserves:

Use 1 kg preserve sugar (with pectin) for every two pounds of strawberries.
Add half a rhubarb and 1 clove while cooking. Simmer for 15 minutes.

Preserve in clean and sealed jars.

I’d be very grateful on any advice on how to make bush roses thrive =)

Any topic you want to introduce is welcome in this thread!

147 thoughts on “Pakistan, Jam and Roses

  1. I am wholeheartedly impressed by Mariam.

    And I feel a lot of respect for you jamylah, even though we disagree now and again. And again. 🙂

  2. Good points.

    I wonder however, which statement of Piotr’s would a muslim say is a lie, or incorrect?

  3. Fiona, I can certainly recognize the factual statements that piotr is making his/her comment off of. There is no denying some of the factual basis for those statements. I think I can accurately say that the issue with what Piotr said is in the portrayal of the Muhammad s/he is referencing, and that of course is based on his/her view of that person. We describe what we see. Muslims don’t see that, so they would say it is all inaccurate.
    Piotr sees a fiqh aspect of wearing socks to pray, and in his/her view understands it as ‘their god cares about what they wear on their feet to pray (infering that it’s ridiculous, because a true god wouldn’t care [I’m supposing, of course])’.

    Muslims will look at that fiqh aspect and perhaps think, ‘well, there may be supernatural things we don’t understand or know about the salat that God does, so we trust His guidance that this is how we should conduct it’.

    If piotr is being unanimous in his deduction that religious rituals are unnecessary and not the result of a true deity, then s/he would denounce not just Islamic rituals, but those practices by Jews, Catholics, and even Wiccans.

    This is just an example based on the least inflammatory aspect mentioned, I go into detail with all of them if anyone likes. But I’m sure I am bringing up aspects many here are already well acquainted with.

  4. Yes, of course you´re right. People see what they choose to see. But I ask myself. What could anybody say against Jesus, that there’s a factual basis for, that would equal what Piotr said about Muhammad? Seems to me, muslims must brainwash themselves to overlook a whole lot more than christians do. Maybe I’m wrong?

  5. The interesting thing is, the information on record about Jesus is far, far less than what we have about Mohammad SAWS. There’s really no way to know that we wouldn’t see Jesus the same way, if we had a collection of many of his sayings and actions, is there? If all we knew of Muhammad was a summary of his life, highlighted by some of his most outstanding good deeds, that would lead many to entirely different conclusions about him, I’m sure.

    But what I find interesting, to be specific, is how someone can approach the figure of Mohammad (supposedly) objectively, and say something like ‘he told men to beat their wives’ but never mention the several times actually said “do not beat your wives”. In fact, there is no statement attributed to Muhammad SAWS at all that reads “men, go beat your wives”. The closest actual statement from his lips that could be construed as a support for wife beating is one that reads “Allah will not ask men why they beat their wives”. But this is a very, very general statement and one classified as weak. The strong hadith (and there are several) actually report him saying not to beat wives.

    The only other aspect is the ayat in Quran that some use to support wife beating. Only non muslims would attribute that to Muhammad SAWS, because Muslims don’t recognize the Quran as coming from him but from Allah. And of course there a variety of ways people take that ayat as there are intentions for doing so.

  6. I promise I wouldn’t want to be waited on hand and foot by four wives, but then I’m not a man I’m a Dane 😉

    I have a wonderful wife who’d never dream of waiting on me. She does however love to surprise me by doing things for me just as I love doing things for her. I love her because she is my equal or more in anything, I love admiring her and being challenged by her. She is my best friend. The idea of other women, or obedient women cracks me up. Or even worse – teenagers!!?? If somebody brought a teenage wife to me I’d go insane. Dirty clothes and make-up everywhere, candy in stead of food, One Direction and Game of Thrones!!?? Brrrrrr :p How on earth would I find the time to do the laundry, clean and cook for four women??? You tell me!

  7. I agree that we might find Jesus less palatable if we knew more about him (goes for all men I’ve ever known), but still as things stand there is far less about Jesus that could be construed as objectionable. Having sex with children, owning slaves and having sex with them, waging war and killing people – these are things that most people would find difficult to stomach in any man – no matter if he gave children dolls and donated to the salvation army the rest of the time.

    Well, best perhaps put the topic to rest. I am a pagan, and I hope you can forgive my heresies.

  8. It seems there is a lot of misconceptions about what “the West” really is and I think that’s where the confusion is coming from. It’s certainly not as portrayed in our movies and TV shows and it really depends on which Western country we’re talking about. The UK is leagues different than the U.S. which is different than Canada which is different than Latin America which is also different than Western European countries which is vastly different from Eastern European countries.
    I can really only speak for the U.S. and some of Latin America as that is where I have had personal experience. The U.S. has a rich history of immigrants from all over the world contributing and helping change the country for the better. With such diversity laws have to be interpreted or passed with a wider focus. It’s just not practical to narrow the scope to fit only one religious viewpoint so it’s just easier to take a broad approach which ends up giving lots of people rights they wouldn’t get under different circumstances. Anywhere from 1-6% of the american population identifies as atheist. A politician’s religion can still make or break him/her.
    As for Latin America… well we don’t receive as much diverse immigration as the U.S. does so a fair number of the population is RC. I’d say the situation here is probably closer to the way the average muslim in a muslim country experiences religion. You are X because your parents were X and you do Y and Z because well, it’s tradition and cultural at this point. There people will do things that go explicitly against their “beliefs” and end up in stupid conundrums. (My cousin got his girlfriend pregnant out of wedlock – both still live at home and are studying – but would not consider any options other than keeping the baby because of their “beliefs” – they are still unmarried and the baby is going to turn 3 this year). These people are culturally RC, paying lip service and only becoming pious on major holidays. Just like some are culturally muslim and only seem to remember that when Ramadan rolls around.

  9. I give up. The internet is a very defective form of communication, even when everyone speaks the same language. Thanks though for the effort. The only 2 languages I can speak are English and French, so I have limitations.

  10. //because you see every muslim believes islam is perfect. At least i have never come across any muslim who does not believe that. So yes it is impossible for muslims to do something that is islamically correct and also be evil.//

    Saad I am starting to question some things now as well. I have realized the vast majority of the problems are due to a lot of the sectarian teachings, and scholars who follow other ancient scholars who may have lived in an age where they wanted to dominate people or own women. I have been watching Edip Yuser’s videos, where he said many of the Hadith were fabricated in the Prophet’s name, to keep up the rulers’ hold on people, to promote certain goods, etc. The Prophet (SAWS) himself forbad people to write down Hadith during his lifetime till death, where the Quran and some established practices (such as Salah) were said to be sufficient.

    Some 230 years after his death Imam Bukhari and others started collecting and writing the sayings of the Prophet (SAWS), a lot of which contradict the Quran, or abrogate some of the verses within. The one main thing they checked was the reliability of the narrators. Why not check whether the particular Hadith goes fully hand in hand with the Quran or if it contradicts the Quran, if it is to be followed? The fact is that even if the narrators were reliable, the Hadith was still transmitted verbally in a Chinese-whisper style. The one thing that is actually authentic for us Muslims is the Quran itself. This is why I am looking more into non-sectarian teachings of the Quran, while being careful of the information I come across.

  11. LOL Fiona, I don’t consider what you say to be a heresy. It’s your reality, your view, it’s meaningful to you. That’s where I leave it, so there’s nothing to forgive.

    If I can just quicky share my personal thoughts on one of the aspects mentioned -the aspect that I personally find to be most disturbing: the idea of an older man having sex with a young child.

    I just want to start by saying that everything I know about such types I learned prior to becoming Muslim. I learned that pedophiles tend to have an exclusive preference for children. Pedophiles start perpetrating often when they are young themselves, sometimes in pre-adolescence. Pedophiles are sick, twisted, and usually cannot be cured. Pedophiles are a danger to all children.

    So we have this fact that Muhammad SAWS married Aisha at roughly age 6, and consummated that marriage with her only a few years later. Just based on that, it seems like he’s a pedophile. But when we take the template of what is known about a pedophile, he doesn’t really meet the full criteria. If he really were a pedophile, all of his wives would be underage. Not only that, he would’ve been marrying girls well before the age he married Kadija. In fact, he probably wouldn’t have married her or any older woman at all- a pedophile would’ve found that disgusting. I truly believe that if Muhammad were a pedophile, he would not have had just the wives he had, but a harem of hundreds of young girls.

    So I take those aspects, and weigh them against the information of his marriage to Aisha. And for me personally, it shows that things simply don’t add up. For me, when things don’t add up, I conclude that I probably don’t have enough information to reconcile the discrepencies- there’s more to the story. So I withhold my judgment until all the information is in. Because of the kind of person I am with everyone, I assume best intentions, not worst, until I feel I know enough to make a sound conclusion.

  12. LOL it does make you wonder how adolescents acted during different points in history. Were they always this way? I recently visited Gettysburg where they talked about the young men (some as young as 12) fighting in the war itself, while the young ladies operated as nurses. Seems to me that would take an awful lot more maturity than what I see in my own teen.

  13. I agree with you Mariam, as to the lack of agenda behind these questions. But honestly, when someone says ‘what’s wrong with prostitution’, or, ‘what is wrong with wearing a swastika’ , the reader is put in a position of trying to understand the mentality of someone who is obviously very intelligent , but still asks questions that should be commonly understood. I don’t think asking questions just “out of curiosity” is productive. Communication is just too difficult.

  14. Saad:
    Yes, I agree that polygamy as a topic is not interesting in and of itself. Instead, one could pose the question, ‘why is there injustice’ or, in a more positive light say, ‘what is justice’ and then take responsibility for finding and living the answer.

    I like to think that what God actually did is tell people, not just men, but people, ‘your job is to act with justice’. It is your job to figure out what it is.

    But Muslim males never interpret their task this way. I never hear “my task in life is to figure out what justice is, and do it.” The first and last thing I ever hear from Muslim males is about their gender based rights to take. “I have the God given RIGHT to have 4 wives, give me my right. ” That’s how children talk, not adult men.

  15. From what I’ve read Muhammad married all his wives from practical reasons – except Aishah. Even the first one, whom he purportedly loved, was obviously a catch for money and position. The rest of the bunch were tribal marriages. So the one time he married because of lust, he married a child. Is that not so? And also, you must remember that Muhammad was a slave owner who is known for having had sex with his slaves. Do you know what age they were when he had sex with them? It really is worth pondering, why would a man with 9-11 wives need or want to hump his slaves? Does give us pause. You can marry for power and money, and then have your god allow you to bang your slaves, of any age, and marry once for attraction – a six year old child.

    I must admit, I don’t assume best intentions, not when men, power and sex are the factors.

  16. I do believe Dale, you are one of the most intelligent women I have ever had the pleasure to encounter.

  17. I think it’s safe to say that Eastern society doesn’t value justice the way Western society does. At least, that’s coming from the mouth of someone from Pakistan. I was given a book last month by a friend of my ex mother in law (this friend never met me in her life) that was written by a former Muslim who converted to Christianity. Her reason for giving it to me was obvious, because the whole book detailed why he converted, the thought processes used, etc etc. One of the things he discussed a bit was how the culture he was brought up in was one where authority was valued, and so shame was the currency. Whereas the western culture he was later exposed and lived in valued justice, so the currency is guilty actions. I thought it was an interesting breakdown.

    Anyway, the points raised are having me examine what my beliefs and thoughts about justice are and are not. I think that on a cursory note, most men who practice polygamy are thinking of what’s just to them, not what’s just to others. I think there may just be a conflict at times of when to choose to do justice to ourselves and when to do it to others. I’m still thinking about it, though. Not conclusive on that aspect.

  18. Mariam, I appreciate your efforts to reconcile things, Im similar. When you find the answer do let me know 🙂

  19. Nice. My dad was a man like that. Justice no matter if you were family, friend or foe.

  20. Jamylah:
    “I think there may just be a conflict at times of when to choose to do justice to ourselves and when to do it to others”

    There is no separation between these 2. What appears to be a conflict is our own failure to understand what is probably a paradox.

  21. Now this is something that everyone should read. i am justing commenting to bump the comment up in recent comments list 🙂

  22. Absolutely no offense intended (I actually try to stay out of these conversations), but that argument sure wouldn’t wash in today’s time. Plenty of older married men mess around with children. They may never have done it before, and hopefully never do it again because, again hopefully, he got caught and thrown in prison (where pedophiles are not very popular).
    A man can be a first-and-only-time offender, but if he gets busted, he IS in fact a pedophile. A sex offender. And that is a felony worthy of a nice long stretch in prison.

    I too am a pagan so forgive me, but I was a practicing Muslim once. These things about Muhammad I too have had a very difficult time with.

  23. // Instead, one could pose the question, ‘why is there injustice’ or, in a more positive light say, ‘what is justice’ and then take responsibility for finding and living the answer.
    I like to think that what God actually did is tell people, not just men, but people, ‘your job is to act with justice’. It is your job to figure out what it is.//

    Dale, as a Muslim, I am thinking when Allah mentions justice repeatedly throughout the Quran, He doesn’t simply mean equity as is understood from the way it is interpreted, for example being just with wife in regard to time and money or something like that. Those things are part of the package, yeah, but there is more to justice than what meets the eye, such as in physical form.

    You made a great point, that God told people to act with justice, but then left them with the job to find out what it is. That didn’t quite occur to me as it did to you. So I really very much thank you for mentioning it.

  24. No offense taken, but it wasn’t meant to be an argument or an attempt to persuade anyone’s views. I was just sharing my personal thoughts so that others may understand how some like myself approach these things. I know that doesn’t mean my thoughts are acceptable or accurate according to others.

  25. Jamylah:
    “So we have this fact that Muhammad SAWS married Aisha at roughly age 6, and consummated that marriage with her only a few years later. …. I conclude that I probably don’t have enough information to reconcile the discrepencies- …. So I withhold my judgment until all the information is in.”

    Jamylah, you know that Muhammad (SAWS) had sex with a 9 year old girl, and you need more information. I don’t. Islam, and this behavior, are not synomous in my mind. One is a religion, one is a grown man sleeping with a 9 year old. Muslims do not separate Islam, from Allah, from the life of Muhammad (SAWS). That leads to the outlook you just expressed.

    This is why I find it so hard to communicate with Muslims.

  26. Hi,

    One of the explanations offered for this is that a 6yr old girl a thousand years ago is not the same as a 6yr old girl now.

    Other cited examples of this are Prophets who stood as tall as buildings, taller in fact. Moses supposedly had a family of 70,000 (i think, sorry if incorrect).

    So the rationale is that modern humans are not the same as in earlier times.

    However we know Aisha played with dolls and swings, so I think we can still accurately assume she was child-like at the very least.

    Personally I think most muslims are uncomfortable when it comes to this topic, but they have faith their Prophet was a great man therefore believe there must be a plausible explanation.

  27. Dale, you may want to check out this article regarding Ayesha’s age. It contains historical text and ideas gained from a Quranic verse to explain the matter.

    I am sorry if we Muslims seem confused on some matters and unable to explain properly. As I said, mostly the sectarian teachings and Hadith which contradict the Quran have been the major sources of problems. A lot of Hadith were fabricated soon after the Prophet’s death to justify rulers’ hold on people, pedophilia, owning women, unnecessary violence, etc. Some might have been genuinely mistaken during transfer of Hadith. But otherwise yeah, we Muslims take Islam quite seriously. So far though I haven’t seen the Quran either allow or disallow child marriage (although it repeatedly talks on justice), but seeing the context of the verses in 4:6, 2:221, 4:21, 4:19, 65:6, they look like they are referring to mentally and physically mature women in the marriage context, otherwise the wording in the verses should have been more different to accomodate children. Anyway, here is the article:

    http://19.org/blog/aisha/

  28. “It neither allows nor disallows child marriages” Well, islam has taken care of that problem:
    “Everything is muTlaq (unconditional/halaal), until a prohibition arrives concerning it.”
    Source:
    Al-Sadooq, Man Laa YaHDuruh Al-Faqeeh, vol. 1, pg. 317, hadeeth # 937

    “Everything in which there is halaal and haraam, it is halaal for you, until you see (proof) that you know it is haraam, then leave it.”
    Source:
    Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 6, pg. 339, hadeeth # 1

  29. //Well, islam has taken care of that problem://
    so you have summed up entire islamic tradition of dealing with halal and haram?
    and 1.6 billion muslims believe that?

  30. No _I_ haven’t. Those guys did. I’m showing you again that there is always a hadith, a fatwa or a sura allowing or justifying men’s rights to sex and power over women. It’s amazing really how foolproof that rule is – THERE IS ALWAYS A HADITH; A FATWA OR A SURA ALLOWING OR JUSTIFYING MEN’S RIGHTS TO SEX AND POWER OVER WOMEN.

  31. I am not surprised that a physician from Michigan would try to find proof to his prophet not being a child molesting rapist. Do you have any similar articles from e.g. the Permanent Committee for Islamic Research, or any other accepted islamic source/scholar? Now that would have been interesting.

  32. //Do you have any similar articles from e.g. the Permanent Committee for Islamic Research, or any other accepted islamic source/scholar? Now that would have been interesting.//
    Give me the name of any “Accepted” islamic scholar/source and i will find out for you. people agree and disagree with scholars/sources all the time.
    why would i believe every thing that “permanent committee for islamic research” has to say?
    For example here is a book that sheds some light on ayesha’s age (it is a research work) but i don’t believe majority of what this author has to say.

  33. Well Saad, you sound more and more western by the day. “Why should I believe what authorities say”? It’s a good question. The best really. But it’s not really an islamic question, is it?

    If we could believe subjectively, like you suggest, I could claim that I am muslim since I believe in “None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself”. I don’t believe in any of the other stuff, but that I do believe.

  34. In verse 4:5-6, which guide Muslims in their duty to raise orphaned children, which should also be valid in raising our own children:

    “Do not give the immature ones your money, which God has entrusted to you. Spend on them from it and clothe them, and speak to them nicely. Test the orphans until they reach the age of marriage, then if you determine in them sound judgment, then give them their wealth…”

    In the context of the above verses, we see if we cannot trust a six-year-old to manage financial matters, she cannot be intellectually or physically fit for marriage, and take up the responsible task of a wife.

    Abu Bakr, her father, was a great believer among Muslims, and a just man. It’s difficult to believe he would betroth his immature seven-year-old daughter to the 50-year-old Prophet.

    Anyway, from the Quranic verses I posted, the Quran is leaning more against child marriages than anything else. Also I think regarding an outright ban, the Quran is there for centuries through different cultures. In different cultures in the past boys and girls who were deemed mentally and physically mature, and could take responsibilities, used to get married early on, and it wasn’t much of an issue back then. And that’s what I am seeing in the Quranic context as well.

    “O you who have believed, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion…” [4:19]

    Anyway, I agree too child marriages, where a person is not mentally or physically fit for marriage, and most importantly is not in a position or mature enough to understand and give proper permission, doesn’t make sense, and needs to be outlawed and legislated against. I hardly see child marriages myself in this age especially as well, except in rural areas, regardless of religious backgrounds.

  35. //Well Saad, you sound more and more western by the day.//

    Fiona me, Saad and others are all learning here. We learn from various sources, whether they are ‘western’ or not. And regarding believing subjectively, we Muslims believe in the Quran. That is our platform. But then several translations have some errors in them too, or the translators refer to Hadith scriptures to interpret. So we may use several translations and get the best meaning out of them. Regarding Hadith, yeah we have allowance to be subjective in that, since it is not God’s word, and some things may have got fabricated to suit a culture or time but then is considered as the Prophet’s words. Comparing them with the Quranic context is better, if Hadith is to be followed.

    “The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of
    it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones
    who possess intelligence.” (Qur’an 39:18)

    And beyond using our reasoning and intellect and trying to understand our religion better and how the world operates that we live in, we have no plans of changing our religion’s primary teachings that are clear to us.

  36. I look forward to the day when all nations ban child marriages, in practice as well as in law.

    Maturity in islam, as I have understood it, is connected to puberty. 9 years of age is a perfectly natural age to have your first period, it might well have been what Muhammad was waiting for. Even in his society, I think a man who had intercourse with babies would have been questioned so he might have known that to remain a leader he had to wait until she had her first menses. That he would have had a teenaged wife, or a wife in her early twenties, in his house for a couple of years without sleeping with her is ludicrous.

  37. I wish everybody would just stick to the “don’t do unto others what you would not have them do unto you” bit. ❤

  38. //Well Saad, you sound more and more western by the day. “Why should I believe what authorities say”? It’s a good question. The best really. But it’s not really an islamic question, is it? //

    i have stated it many times before it is a dilemma that their is no authority for muslims on which every muslim will agree.
    word for word i am quoting myself > “NOBODY SPEAKS FOR ISLAM”
    1.6 billion muslims round the globe believe in 3 things their is a GOD(they call him Allah), Muhammad was his prophet, Quran is the revelation God gave to Muhammad.
    in fact i would like you to name a scholar who is authority over islam, (for shias you can say Khumeni is one. what about rest of us)

  39. // 9 years of age is a perfectly natural age to have your first period,//
    i will say you and many muslims will agree on it and many like me will not.

    // it might well have been what Muhammad was waiting for.//
    this is what you “CHOOSE” to believe. actually it would have been better if you didn’t used the word “might” seems like you are not sure?
    this is what i earlier posted,
    “The migration to Madina has been recorded in ‘Tabqat Ibn Sa’ad’ related by Ayesha “HERSELF”. We come to know through it that the Prophet did not bring the new bride home even after the lapse of some time after the migration. On Abu Bakar’s enquiring, the prophet said that he had not yet enough money to pay as dower. It proves that the delay was not because of the underage of Ayesha.”
    Again it is history and many will conveniently ignore it because they are quiet satisfied with 6/9 story as it resonates well with them.

  40. Methinks the boy doth protest too much. 🙂

    And by the way, the average age for a girl in the UK to have her first menses is 11,7 years. Everything between 8-15 is within the normal curve. So 9 is perfectly natural.

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