This is Islam

Source: Wikimedia Commons, By: Rawa77

Source: Wikimedia Commons, By: Rawa77

According to mullahs, imams and muslims it is islamic to:

* Allow men to rape their wives

* Sell and buy women to settle disputes between men

* Allow all men and old sick pedophiles to rape and marry children and babies

* Allow for raped women to be beaten, whipped and executed for being raped

* Allow men to beat and starve their wives

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/18/afghan-law-womens-rights-blocked?INTCMP=SRCH

This is beyond words disgusting and monstrous. How sick can people be? How warped can a person’s beliefs be? How can women like Ana and her vile pack at Polygamy 411 believe in this shit???

YOU ARE MONSTERS!!!

Shame! Shame! Shame!

20 thoughts on “This is Islam

  1. ‘This is Afghanistan’, would’ve been – albeit ethnocentric – a more apt title. Most media reports identify that ‘inter-tribe marriage for dispute settlement’ is a traditional (not religious) practice. Most respectfully: your post inaccurately attributes to Islam what are cultural practices. Your assumption that these points you’ve highlighted are the very ones that go against Islam – is also not based on facts. Delete my comment if you will – but I felt this needed to be pointed out.
    Have a great day.

  2. Exactly! For example, bride kidnapping in Kazakhstan is a ‘cultural’ practice. But they do follow Islam. To say that they kidnap brides because of Islam, is highly incorrect.

  3. I was a Muslim most of my life and grew up in a Muslim country, … never experienced or seen any of this! Most Muslims are wonderful pepole. Unfortunately, the media distorted their image!

  4. A distinction needs to made between Islam and the culture; this post is unfair and is falsely attributed to Islam. The above comments are sufficient and I need not add any more to it.

  5. Hello Adnan R Amin, MFM Aisha and Faith Rehearsed. Welcome, and thanks for posting!
    I do not delete posts, I believe in freedom of speech. 🙂

    Say you have rules at a school saying that the boys in lower fifth and above are responsible for the younger boys, some of them their own little brothers. You give the older boys canes and tell them that you will leave them with a set of rules, e.g.:
    You are to be kind to the younger children, but as soon as they disobey you in the slightest you must admonish them and if they still don’t obey you, beat them. If you believe they might be disrespectful or do anything you don’t want them to do you are allowed to lock them in their dorms. You are their heads. What do you think will happen?

    Islam is the enabler. You can say it is not the criminal, I say it is the weapon even if it is not the perp. Islam says slavery is halal. Islam says it’s halal to have sex with your slave woman, it says nothing about her consent. Islam says that you have a right, even a duty, to admonish your wife, stay away from her in bed and then beat her e.g. if she denies you sex or in any way disobeys you. Islam says a wife must give her husband sex anytime, “even if she is at the oven” – sex no matter what, hence rape can not exist in marriage. Women are not allowed to mix with men. “And stay in your homes” Hence, they are the guilty party if they are raped, for they have mixed. They will be whipped, or executed. Islam says that it is halal for an old man, or any man, to marry a child of 6.

    This is not Afghanistan. These are phenomena that are based on the quran and hadiths, which means you can find them all through the islamic world. And not only that individuals commit these heinous acts, there are bad eggs in all societies, they are upheld by law. Men are allowed to beat their wives in many nations in the arab world and Africa. Child marriages are allowed in many nations, e.g. Yemen. Rape victims are whipped in many nations, e.g. Saudi Arabia.

    So no, this is not Afghanistan. This is islam, and what islam enables.

    The day when the muslim majority stands up and and unanimously claim that all people are equal before god, equal before each other, equal in rights and obligations in all aspects of life and before the law – the day when all muslim nations sign the UN bill of humans rights – the day when all muslims in favour of polygamy claim that it is self evident that the marriage contract then must be equal granting wife and husband alike the exact same status in marriage and the exact same right to marry up to three more people – the day when a majority of muslims see a person burn the quran and unanimously state “I am disgusted by the act, but I am willing to die for your right to perform it” – that’s the day when some of your arguments above become valid.

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me!

  6. I am not a muslim scholar but I don’t feel that I can let a few points slide. You talk of whipping as a bad thing, and yes, to a sinner it is, but if you’re not intending to sin then you have nothing to worry about. I am not married but I do not intend to be unfaithful when I am married (I should say hopefully married!) so whipping doesn’t scare me. Strong punishments are needed for socially damaging transgressions in order to act as deterrents. For example, in the 19th century, hanging was the principle punishment for pretty much anything in Britain and the hanging wasn’t even done, well, you could hang from the kneck for 30 minues before you were dead, and if you had friends thennthey would pull your leg to end the sufferring, this is where the term ‘pulling your leg’ comes from. people (and children) were hanged, even for stealing cheese! When the idea of actual prisons came about, then the sentence for rape was reduced from a hanging to a prison sentence, when this occurred then the level of rape victims sky rocketed. It is now something like 3 years imprisonment which in my opinion shows little respect for the victim. Also to charge allegations of unfaithfulness is dealt with severely in Islam (80 lashes for false witness) and 4 witnesses at the point of penetration is required in order to charge the adulterers (both men and women receive the same charge), which is rather hard to get. I think it right that we have strict punishments for these heavy sins because it is something that you cannot do, something that must not be done. In a book called ‘Backwards in High heels’ (a good feminist book) the writers say never sleep with a married man, and don’t fool yourself into thinking you cannot help yourself, you can always help yourself.

    As for the school rules… those seem weird. I went to a muslim school and was never treated as such. There were definitely no canes.

    It is halal for a man to sleep with his slave, and that was something that was a bone of contention for a long time with me until I picked up a book about the 27 million modern day slaves that still exist today, most of them are prostitutes in brothels, and because slavery has been internationally outlawed, these women are hidden, ashamed of and kept behind bars and out of society, surely this is a worse scenario? Islam’s attitudes towards slavery has always been of emancipation, for instance if a man commits manslaughter then to repent he must free a slave (because one person’s death should lead to another person’s freedom), and if he cannot find a slave then he should fast 2 months straight (and I can tell you that is haaard). If a man were to treat his female slave badly then he would essentially be sinning because to treat any person badly is against the Islamic way. We always think of slaves as those of transatlantic type, who were worked so hard they died within 3 years, but actually there have been ship commanders who were slaves, and writers who were slaves, we have this idea that it is impossible for a slave to have had a happy life. I do not promote slavery, it is against human rights, but it is a fact that slavery has been around since there have been humans and an international law is not going to stop it’s prevalence, Islam promotes the emancipation of slaves but recognizes that it is difficult to forbid it entirely in human society because humans are generally very bad creatures who will always wish to conquer over others.

    Men in Islam are not allowed to beat their wives, the arabic word in the verse of the quran that says a man can ‘beat’ his wife, has been translated wrong, it is only a very light sort of hard pat if you will, and only if the wife has not guarded her husband’s honor and her own. Very true, a woman cannot deny her husband sex, but the same goes for the husband, plus she can deny him if she is too tired and if the guy pushes her to give him sex then he will be sinning as he must be considerate towards his wife, there is a beautiful verse in the Quran that details this, I can’t remember which but it uses the allegory of a rock with soil on it, if you water it too much the soil will be swept away. There is an excellent film called 678 Cairo which deals with the sexual repression and harassment in Egypt, it tackles this point nicely.

    Okay… I think that’s about it, if I’ve missed a point let me know… gosh that was long. anyway, don’t take my word for all this, please do your own reading on the matter, I’d be happy to recommend some books but I don’t want you to think I’m selectively brainwashing you. God Almighty knows all. take care! Peace!!!

  7. Hello again, and thank you very much for putting time and effort into your post! I appreciate it!

    First of all, there is no proof that severe punishments can reduce serious crime. In the UK e.g. you go to gaol for ca 20 years if convicted of murder. In the US you can get the death penalty. At the same time there are 32 murders in the US to every UK murder. One thing has nothing to do with the other. I can give you a plethora of examples. In countries in Scandinavia rape charges have gone up during the last decade, recent studies show. Is this because punishments are lenient? Research shows that no – that is definitely not the case. The main reason is that rape victims are no longer stigmatized, so victims of rape dare go to the police now, which they didn’t before. Another reason is that these countries have welcomed a very large group of muslim immigrants in the last decade and these tend to regard women who act as equals as prey that one can rape and show one’s male dominance to. (More than half of all men who are found guilty of group rape in Scandinavia are muslims)

    Another thing is that corporal punishments are barbaric per se.

    Also, when a muslim man wants to be unfaithful, he can just marry more women, or fuck some poor prostitute during a mutah, or buy himself some trafficked kid to use as a sex-slave. And this is all halal. As you say, islam allows it. For a woman, there is no way out, in many countries women cannot even legally obtain a divorce even if her husband beats her, starves her, rapes her and has many other wives against her wish.

    Ok , if you believe it’s a good thing to keep sex-slaves to keep them out of brothels, I suppose you feel that way about rich western women buying boys as sex-slaves in Ghana and thailand too. Is that halal too? They are better off with rich elderly women with sadistic tendencies right, than in a dirty brothel? Because we are talking about maxims here right, not men’s rights over women?

    And if something is right just because it’s been around for a long time, I suppose we should keep coloured people in submission too, to respect tradition? Or burn widows?

    I believe your understanding of the arabic word for beating is wrong. Here is the explanation of an arabic, muslim scholar: “It is incomprehensible how so many translators have translated the word “wadhribuhunna” in the above verse as “beat them” or, even more laughable: “beat them [lightly]”. This is wrong, wrong, wrong. It is an abomination which has caused much misunderstanding and opened the door to the enemies of true faith.The word in Arabic means to “strike” or “hit”. It includes everything from a tap with a tooth-stick to what in English we call beating. If it is stated that so-and-so “hit” so-and-so without further description, it would be assumed to be a single blow and it could be of any magnitude.” I repeat: It could be of any magnitude”!! And as both you and me know, one blow can kill a man – and a woman! (Btw – did you know that new research shows that in Saudi, ca 50% of all women are continually beaten and abused by their husbands? And there is no such thing as domestic violence in Saudi law…) And, what should a woman do when her husband hasn’t guarded his honor and hers? Bobbit him? Is there a rule about that? Or why not?
    You can find more on the topic of beatings, and my views, in my post “But one has a degree over the other”

    Most scholars agree that a man is obligated to have sex with his wife every four months, minimum. A wife is obligated to provide sex anytime, unless she is severely ill. What should be is one thing, what is required by law and imams is another.

    And: there is no way ever I will accept any rule or law that differentiates between people, be it based on gender, race, religion or sexual orientation. And I refuse to believe there could be a god evil enough to promote any kind of discrimination. I believe if there is a Satan, he is looking down on the muslim societies today, with executions, war, discrimination, childmarriages, abuse and terror, feeling extremely pleased with himself.

    I think I covered all… 🙂

    No offense please, I just try to make my view clear.

  8. Hmm, I’m not sure if you are asking me not to offend you or if you are implying you mean no offense, either way I’m very offended that I was not master of myself to reply back earlier. But that doesn’t matter.

    As for the rape victims in scandaniavia, the number was always the same high figure, the number reported increased, which shows no significance towards the point I made of punishment being used as a deterrent. The US have always had higher murder rates due to legalised guns, and the death sentence is only used in certain states. If half of the rapists accused in the scandinavian case were muslims, then the other half were non-muslims and deserve no less condemnation. If the criminals were muslim it doesn’t matter because one cannot link them to Islam. Islam is a religion of divine etiology, it cannot be judged by humans who are fallible. There are good muslims and bad muslims and neither should you judge Islam by, you can only judge Islam from your own research of scriptures and philosophy from those who are knowledgeable and be critical of what you read.

    Mutah is pracrised by a very small minority of shia muslims who are a minority of global muslims and it is a contraversial practice and unaccepted by the large majority of muslims and Islamic Scholars. Unfaithfulness is defined as adultery which is where a married person has sex with someone he/she is not married to. So a muslim dude cannot be unfaithful to someone he is already married to. Like I said before, if the first wife does not accept the man’s second marriage she can be granted a divorce and keep her dowry (hence the way out), Islam has enabled her that right, if it is not practiced in Muslim majority countries then that is indeed due to the misogyny of men but NOT Islam, because as I said before there are good and bad muslims and we cannot judge Islam based on humans.

    I didn’t understand your comment about the sadistic old women, but I do not agree with such treatment towards boy/girls/men or women.

    I did not say slavery was right because it’s been around a long time, i just said that it has been around a long long time and is still a modern reality. I was just trying to challenge your idea of what a slave is, and I will repeat myself now that Islam supports the emancipation of slaves as I exemplified before. Slaves and women were some of the first converts to Islam because it granted them equality and human rights (not just in the physical realm but in the spiritual realm too). I had always wondered why slavery had never been outlawed completely in Islam and when I came across the modern day slave book I mentioned before then I understood a little bit why, but God Almighty knows all (plus, not all female slaves were used for sexual release, read ‘The map of Love’ by Ahdaf Souef, it gives and example of this).

    As to the beat lightly arabic word thing, that is something new to me, I will have to read up about it, but I think it important to mention that Tarek Ramadan teaches to disregard this verse of the Quran because the Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) never laid a hand on any of his wives, hence this is a sunnah and to act against it would be to not imitate the Muslim Example.

    As for the saudi arabian women beating thing… I could easily say the same thing about non muslims. Domestic violence is a global issue and must be tackled, just because some muslims did it does not mean Islam allows it. If a women were hit, I don’t think it shows equal rights for her to hit back… that would just cause a vicious cycle of revenge and bitterness, it would be best for her to leave the marriage/relationship.

    Islamic teachings explain that the sexual gratification of women is very important and if not achieved then is something to be condemned (Imam Ghazali, ‘Disciplining the Soul, Breaking the Two desires’ it’s a good read, though you have to put it into the context of 11th century arabia’. I will repeat that A wife cannot deny her husband sex if she has no real reason, and her husband (who in Islam is taught to be loving) should be considerate of his wife, so if he pressures her when she is not able then he would be sinning as this would be against the Islamic way. Plus, I get the impression that women who are happily married tend to want sex and dislike not being approached by their husbands.

    I don’t really get what you’re saying about laws differentiating between people and gender and stuff, I think I’m too tired to fathom your point, but I agree with you, although I also don’t understand when you say a God evil enough…

    To close: Islam condemns child marriages and racial discrimination (The last sermon of the Prophet Muhammed (Peace be upon Him) was very clear on this). Islam promotes female empowerment, inheritence for women (first constitution to do so) learning for both genders, questioning the teachings of parents, progression of science and human rights.

    I believe that Islam is truly beautiful, and if it weren’t then Islam wouldn’t be the fastest growing religion in the world, nor would the large majority of its converts be women.

    And God Almighty knows all

    Peace.

  9. Hello Zaffa 87, I hope you don-t mind if I answer your last post here.

    You say “As for the rape victims in scandaniavia, the number was always the same high figure, the number reported increased, which shows no significance towards the point I made of punishment being used as a deterrent.”. Yes it does. Making punishments more lenient has not increased the number of rapes. So it’s proof these things do not correspond. And in the US they have always had capitol punishment, and as you say, high murder rates. More proof. Research today clearly states there is no correlation between harsh punishments and decreasing crime rates.

    “If half of the rapists accused in the scandinavian case were muslims, then the other half were non-muslims and deserve no less condemnation.” – Well forgive me for being unclear. Muslims made up half of all CONVICTED rapists, and further more, they only constitute about 5 % of the population! And you don’t believe cultural attitudes are relevant..? Defendants in these cases, muslim men and boys, have even stated that group rape is a ritual punishment for women who believe they are free and equal.

    And yes, as you say, mutah allows for muslim men to have halal sex with prostitutes.
    Many muslim countries will NOT allow women to divorce, solely on the grounds of her husband becoming polygamous. And a woman can not marry more than one man and have mutahs with prostitutes when she feels the itch. Islam is there to provide men with the right to sex anytime with a lot of women, while islam is there to rule over the sex life of women. If you check what islamic scholars say you will find that they recommend men to take care of their wives sexual needs “But what they are required to do by islam is have sex with their wives at least every 4 months”. A sharia court will not find a husband giving grounds for divorce if he sees to her needs every 4 months…

    You stated “I didn’t understand your comment about the sadistic old women, but I do not agree with such treatment towards boy/girls/men or women.” That’s not what I was talking about. I was saying that if sex slavery is better than living in a brothel, which you said, than old western women paying to have sex with little boys in Thailand and Ghana e.g. where this is common, is good too? Or are you being misogynist, only looking to help female prostitutes by allowing muslim men to give them a better life by buying them and keeping them as sex slaves? Me, I don’t really see islamically halal Ariel Castros as a good solution to the sex industry problem.

    You say “As for the saudi arabian women beating thing… I could easily say the same thing about non muslims. Domestic violence is a global issue and must be tackled, just because some muslims did it does not mean Islam allows it.” But the difference here is that non muslim countries have out lawed domestic violence!!! In Saudi there is no such law!!! In most muslim countries there is no such law!!! Because men are islamically allowed to strike their wives, so they can not out law it!! There are bad eggs everywhere, here at least they are breaking the law when they strike their wives!!!!!!!

    You say “To close: Islam condemns child marriages and racial discrimination (The last sermon of the Prophet Muhammed (Peace be upon Him)” Hmm I didn’t want to go there, but Muhammad married a 6 year old, defiled her when she was 9… Many muslim countries still allow marrying 6-9 year old children. Fact.

    Yes, racial discrimination is often condemned by muslims, granted. But most muslim men are coloured so that is natural isn’t it… I’m just saying that misogyny is just as horrendous as racism, and I will accept neither!

    Thank you for your reply! I’m writing on an iPad so I hope you will excuse any weird auto corrected words…

  10. for punishment as a deterrent, “Strong punishments are needed for socially damaging transgressions in order to act as deterrents. For example, in the 19th century, hanging was the principle punishment for pretty much anything in Britain and the hanging wasn’t even done, well, you could hang from the kneck for 30 minues before you were dead, and if you had friends thennthey would pull your leg to end the sufferring, this is where the term ‘pulling your leg’ comes from. people (and children) were hanged, even for stealing cheese! When the idea of actual prisons came about, then the sentence for rape was reduced from a hanging to a prison sentence, when this occurred then the level of rape victims sky rocketed.”

    For the ‘Convicted’ mix up (my bad), “If the criminals were muslim it doesn’t matter because one cannot link them to Islam. Islam is a religion of divine etiology, it cannot be judged by humans who are fallible. There are good muslims and bad muslims and neither should you judge Islam by, you can only judge Islam from your own research of scriptures and philosophy from those who are knowledgeable and be critical of what you read.”

    For your third paragraph, read Imam Al-Ghazali’s Discipling the soul and breaking the two desires, I’ve already explained mutahs.

    I never said sex slavery is better than brothels, both are evils, Islam recognises this and fights for freedom and peace, my comment on slavery was an observation I made. And I will repeat myself again, that slavery has always been around and will always be around, read ‘The Map of Love’ By Ahdaf Souef, it mentions this subject.

    As for domestic violence and marital rights in bed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyMF_lyQ0ks&list=PL0F96E1F528BA35C2 (watch from 1.45) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t4hsgtjKEU&list=PL0F96E1F528BA35C2 (more on domestic violence, and explanation of the verse on supposedly ‘beating a woman’ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXK8FSC-ucA (completion of explanation on ‘striking a woman’)

    As for the marriage of Lady Aisha: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_pEiZUUcSo and this one also gives more history http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM4IuDVFL3s

    You’re racial discrimination comment is rather misguided, I do not wish to answer it, because it’s so misguided I can’t bring myself to even acknowledge it.

    There were no typos,

    God Almighty knows best of all.

    Peace

  11. Fact:
    Independant, modern research clearly proves that capitol punishments and or severe punishments do not have a deterrant effect:
    http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/bocsar/ll_bocsar.nsf/vwFiles/CJB84.pdf/$file/CJB84.pdf
    http://marisluste.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/deterrence-theory.pdf
    Fact:
    Muslims immigrants are more than four times as likely to commit rape and more than 8 times as likely to commit gang rape (in Scandinavian, can easily be translated using Google):
    http://www.bra.se/download/18.cba82f7130f475a2f1800012697/2005_17_brottslighet_bland_personer_fodda_sverige_och_utlandet.pdf
    So, if you claim it is not a question of religiously based cultural attitudes, which is what research shows, are you saying it is innate among men of certain nations? I’m sorry, but I find the suggestion offensive.

    As for slavery fine. At least you accept slavery overall, women having men and boys as sex-slaves too, not only men buying girls from traffickers. Or did I read you wrong? At least that would be an undiscriminate breach of human rights.
    Slavery is always horrid and inhumane, and sex slavery is not more acceptable because it is religiously sanctioned.


    Fact:
    Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
’A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.
    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated ‘Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated ‘Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that ‘Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).” what you know of the Quran (by heart)’
    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 
Narrated ‘Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

    Fact:
    Domestic violence

    125 countries, two thirds of all countries worldwide, have outlawed domestic

    violence. However, 603 million women and girls continue to live in countries

    where there is no specific legal protection from domestic violence, e.g. Saudi Arabia, Yemen and other nations where laws are sharia based.

    Marital rape

    52 countries have explicitly criminalized rape within marriage. Worldwide, 2.6

    billion women and girls live in countries where rape within marriage is not

    criminalized e.g. due to the sharia laws. (Source UN)
    ” However, if the woman commits a bigger crime, the husband can beat her not in vengeance but with the intention of reforming her and as a warning. While beating, he should take care that she should not be hurt seriously. The Books of Fiqha have mentioned that the husband can punish his wife for four things:

    a. If the husband orders his wife to decorate herself with ornaments and legitimate make-up but she disobeys and remains dirty.
    b. If the husband invites her to bed and she refuses without any legitimate reason.
    c. If she does not take bath to purify herself after menses.
    d. If she abstain from performing Salaah without a legitimate reason.

    In the above circumstances, the husband should first persuade the wife. If she does not agree to comply with his requests, he may threaten her. If she still does not obey him, he can beat her barring her face. He should not beat her so severely to the extent of a fracture or a severe wound.” (Source Alahazrat.net)
    Isn’t it wonderful? He should abstain from breaking her bones, out of islamic love? There is an enormous difference you see, between some men breaking the law, beating their wives, and men following the law and their religious recommendations by beating their wives..

    As for conjugal rights, some moderate muslims say it is recommended a man try to satisfy his wife. It is however not obligatory. This is obligatory:
    (A) Are there times when it is obligatory (wajib) to have sexual intercourse ?

    Yes! It is wajib on man to have sex with his wife at least once in every four months; this is considered as one of the conjugal rights of the wife. This obligation stays in force unless there is a valid excuse or the wife waives her right.
    (Source Al-Islam.org)

    I don’t quite understand your final words, I am afraid. Affording people different rights based on gender or race for example is banned in the UN decleration of human rights since it is one of the worse transgressions against nature ever committed. This is why the Arab nations have not signed the declaration, they are not willing to declare that women have full human rights. You claim racism is abhorrent (I agree) while the submission and oppression of women is good and an act of love. I am sorry but to me that is vile.

    I must admit it saddens me how people, women, defend oppression, abuse and violations of human rights on religious grounds. It especially sickens me when arguments are made that abuse is based on love – a husband beats his wife because he loves her and wants her improved, a husband may rape his wife to avoid the worse sin of adultery, a husband may lock his wife up for the rest of her life to protect her, a woman’s testimony is worth half of a man’s so as not to stress her in court since she is a brittle, emotinal being.. et.c. It is sickening. And every time these arguments are made, it keeps justifying violence against women, child rape and mental abuse of women who are taught to regard themselves as inferior to men, that Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other

  12. Hello! Just to let you know that I haven’t forgotton you and I will get back to you, but I want to do your reply justice, so give me time 🙂

    Peace!

  13. Dear zaffa 87. Thank you for letting me know! I am grateful for getting some peace and quiet in the sun! 🙂 I had planned on letting the blog be during my vacation, but the traffic here is intense, so I have felt obliged to try to keep up! I would like to say though that I realize I seem harsh. Harsh, resentful and vindictive. I am sorry. I am resentful, maybe because I have been badly hurt. Harsh, well yes. But it is really because I so badly resent people being hurt, oppressed, used, abused. The women and children out there – it kills me that they are put through things I find revolting. Forced polygyny, child marriages, being denied education being denied equal rights – it just kills me! I am sorry if I offend, I really don’t want to. I just want equal human rights, equal social, political, sexual, individual rights and responsibilities for everybody. Sometimes I cry while I write, because I am so frustrated by people who actually believe that a group of people, any group, should be treated differently due to gender, or race, or nationality, or whatever. I am grateful if you forgive me my trespasses, and I am grateful for your opinions and efforts. Slainte!

  14. Aww! Fiona!!! *hugs!!!!!* Of course all is forgiven! I understand your resentment and I am truly sorry you’ve had to encounter Islam in such a hurtful way (honestly I really do, not wanting your husband to marry another woman is nothing to feel ashamed of and is perfectly understandable). Your anger I can relate to, because I am not blind to the utter wrong that is being done by people in this world, sometimes it is men, sometimes it is women, but most of the time it is men, and sometimes it is muslims that do atrocious things (particularly politicians), and it really saddens me to a point of anguish, and this is because I love my religion and I don’t want people to think that Islam is bad, you may not understand this type of love, but it is very powerful a feeling. I have learnt a lot about myself in my debates with you and I think it has been healthy overall for me, I am a very sensitive person and have always been around people who didn’t have any criticisms of Islam, so at first I was deeply affected by your words and it took a while for me to stabilise and gather my thoughts, and now I know how to do that! It has also taught me to search for knowledge, to know humility, and not to feel ashamed of my religion, hence I am grateful towards you for challenging me 🙂 thank you! I hope our correspondence hasn’t disrupted your holiday and I still haven’t forgotten about my proper reply I just want to finish reading the info you gave, I haven’t had much time because I’m doing online courses, I had a crown put on my molar and I’m alone at work because my colleague has decided to suddenly up and leave me to enjoy two weeks in Rio (or the Caribbean, I can’t remember) so work has been super hectic!

  15. Thank you zaffa 87! So cute!
    I do so miss my children! I miss the years when they were small, when we were together all the time… This here is one of my favourite songs:

  16. Okay so here goes my reply! I’m sorry it took so long! Drum roll….
    -Deterrent effect of Capital Punishment-
    The papers you posted were interesting, the paper by Chan and Oxley was very comprehensive, it described researchers battling out the theory of capital punishment having a deterrent effect, but neither side were able to ultimately disprove the other:
    ‘The weight of the research evidence, covering different jurisdiction at different time periods, still favours the ‘no deterrence’ conclusion. Most of these research studies, however, have not been subjected to the kind of critical scrutiny that Ehrlich’s results have been subjected to.’
    ‘Given that it is ethically and politically indefensible to conduct randomised experiments to test the effectiveness of capital punishment as a deterrent, there are only a limited rage of methods researchers can use to analyse the issue. These methods have all been tried in the literature reviewed in this bulletin, but they did not lead to consistent findings.’
    ‘It is in the nature of research that theories and hypotheses can be tested but the results do not constitute a definitive ‘proof’ of any theory.’
    The second paper on deterrence theory did not manage to make any sort of defining conclusion so I focused mostly on the first paper.
    As to the Swedish paper, It did not make the conclusion that muslim immigrants were 8 times more likely to commit gang rape, this is from my readings of the English summary at the bottom, perhaps it said something different in Swedish and I misunderstood. Anyway the paper actually made a defence to the criminal nature of the immigrants and also scrutinised the crime risk of immigrants from North African countries:
    “The high level of relative risk noted among North Africans does not however mean that persons from North Africa are responsible for a large proportion of the offences that are linked to crime suspects in Sweden. On the contrary they account for a very small proportion of these offences. The groups that dominate in this regard are those from the Nordic countries. Persons from Finland, Norway, Denmark and Iceland account for almost five per cent of those suspected of offences, whereas the corresponding figure for North Africans is 0.7 per cent. Amongst other things, of course, this is a result of the fact that the number of persons living in Sweden who were born in North Africa is not very large. The number of immigrants moving to Sweden from her Nordic neighbours is much larger. ”
    “The size of the relative risk among those born in Sweden to two foreign-born parents also diminishes substantially from 2.0 to 1.5. One reason for this is that these groups contain a larger proportion of young men with low levels of educational attainment and income by comparison with those born in Sweden to two Swedish born parents.”
    “The National Council’s assessment is that selection processes associated with the reporting of offences to the police and police investigative activities may explain a certain amount of the relative risk for being registered in connection with crime noted in this report. It is also reasonable to assume that this selection effect is greater the more a given group differs culturally and in appearance from persons with a Swedish background. This would suggest that the overestimation of the group’s actual level of involvement in crime would be particularly substantial for those groups with the highest levels of relative risk, i.e. those from certain parts of Africa and Western Asia. If it had been possible to study the actual criminality of different groups, then the differences in the proportion committing offences are likely to have been somewhat smaller than those presented in this study.”
    “The reception received by immigrants in Sweden does not serve to overcome the difficulties they face in the way that it should. Several researchers have argued that widespread prejudices about groups of immigrants contribute to public sector agencies and various institutions sometimes subjecting immigrant groups to a structural negative discrimination (de los Reyes & Winborg, 2002; Kamali, 2005).”
    -Slavery-
    I agree with you slavery is always horrid and human, however I would like to point out that in the Islamic faith, the philosophy of humankind’s relationship to God Almighty is one between a slave and its master, in a spiritual sense, we are all slaves. Now in the physical sense, I still agree with you it is a horrible thing, but it is still a reality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCwpj6KjeqA Please do not think that Islam religiously sanctions slavery because it really really doesn’t, one of the earliest converts to Islam was a slave (Bilal) who was treated horribly so because he would not follow the un-islamic demand of his polytheistic master and his story has brought tears to my eyes, Abu Bakr Al-Sidddiqu (pronounced As-Siddiqu) ran to emancipate him from his master and paid a lot of money for him when in those times, a beaten and maimed slave would not be worth much.
    -Marriage of Lady Aisha-
    The videos that I posted explained the Hadith you presented, I did not deny them and I am not ashamed of them, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_pEiZUUcSo It provides the cultural context of the time of the Prophet (PBUH) in association to his marriage with Aisha. Karen Armstrong mentioned that Lady Aisha was such an amazing woman that it doesn’t matter how her marriage started, and I agree with her, because despite how young Lady Aisha was (which was not shocking or surprising for the time) she was such a strong woman that her marriage does not seem to have disadvantaged her in any way, I believe that her marriage was very advantageous for her, because her character is still one of the forms of a perfect female role model for women today.
    -Domestic Violence-
    I agree with you, that muslim majority countries have failed to place proper laws to protect its women, and this is a grave problem, but it does not equate to Islam allowing domestic violence, nor is there an association of a muslim’s sin, to his Religion as Islam does not allow domestic violence (no matter what culture he comes from), and unfortunately men have failed to endorse women their rights in Islam and have covered it up by (I believe) deliberately mis-interpreting Islamic scripts to suit their own ways. I can only hope and pray that the laws in these countries change, women in Egypt have become very active in this respect (even before the revolution, and they were subject to rape and sexual harassment by governmental officials whenever they acted in opposition to the government). So, it is a political rather than an Islamic problem. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t4hsgtjKEU
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXK8FSC-ucA (especially 6.15 of the second video).
    -Marital Rape-
    Let’s define what Sharia is first, Sharia is ‘A way towards faithfulness’ not just a set of rules for Law and order and this is subject to change all the time, it is not what everyone thinks as a just set of rules of punishment for law and order. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkD9k6J4_KY You’d like Tarek Ramadan, he is against Capital Punishment has been banned from every country he has criticised (practically all the muslim majority countries) and even his homeland Egypt because of corrupt politicians, he has also been banned from America under the Bush administration but this was lifted I think 6 months later.
    But I digress, marital rape is super wrong in Islam. As both parties in a marriage are entitled to sex it becomes very difficult to define, I do not know much about this subject, except that the forcefulness of a husband upon his wife is not in the Islamic way, it is important for muslims to remember that God is the ultimate Judge and punishes sins and rewards good deeds, he who has fear of the God Almighty would not act this way, it is not his right to rape but it is his right for sex (I’m not going to dispute this as it is a strong desire in men and women, if not fulfilled I both it can make either acquire release in non allowed ways, but this is more dangerous for men because they are weaker in control and more likely to sin sexually). The above videos explain the Quranic verse on the ‘beating a woman’ topic and it is in no way linked to a women denying her husband sex. If he were to rape her then the love between them would disintegrate and that is not Islamic, a marriage like that would not last. The Prophet (PBUH) never laid a hand against any of his wives, and there were occasions where they had gotten angry with him and when he was angry with them, but never was there violence. I have never heard before that it is wajib for a man to have sex with his wife every four months, it sounds a bit unrealistic, I doubt there are men that follow that, and that is not what Islam preaches “Excess in the matter of sexual desire, then, causes the intellect to be overcome to this degree, which is very much to be condemned. Insufficient sexual desire, however, leads to an indifference to women, or to giving them insufficient pleasure, which is also to be condemned.” Imam Al-Ghazali, Disciplining the Soul, Breaking the two desires. (Even though Imam Al-Nawawi says that excess sexual desire soften the heart while every other excess hardens it). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_HYv5ErtMI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sy3M07ogW1I


    -Racial Discrimination-
    I was very opposed to your comment about most muslims being coloured, I thought it wasn’t correct and I also felt that it belittled all the racial discrimination abuse that coloured people experience whether they are muslim or not, but perhaps I misunderstood you. The Arabs have been very hypocritical in the past by signing declarations promising female empowerment only to show off to the world that they have some sort of appreciation for democracy (pre-Arabic spring, they have not done anything fo female empowerment), I am not defending them, and I’m angry because the rights that Islam had endorsed women have not been implemented because of men, greed and pride. Some muslims do sin, but it is important to remember that those who sin (especially in the ways you mentioned in your final paragraph), they really do not know their own religion, honestly, lack of proper Islamic education is a huge problem in the muslim countries and it is due to the combined effects of post colonial struggles and corrupt politicians trying to keep their own country ignorant and fighting one another so that they may remain in power. Oppression of women is not Islamic, it is a reality in muslim majority countries, but it is not Islamic, it is again the effects of politics, you really should read ‘The map of Love’. Women in Islam are not considered inferior to men, they are considered physically weaker, this is a fact, but spiritually and intellectually they are equal, in fact their ability to emote more than a man is considered an ability to be closer to God Almighty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhEirLTl8ig (too late for me to double check the link, but if it’s not in this part then it will be described in part 2).
    I hope I have been clear, I hope I have been able to touch you somehow and I hope you have a softer view of Islam, if not then it’s okay  I intended to make this my final response I feel lately that we have been running in circles and I do not wish to keep repeating the circle. I would however like to be friends with you and learn more about you if you’ll allow it  Thank you for publishing all my comments and thank you for this journey.
    God Almighty knows best
    Peace

  17. Hello, and welcome back!
    To try to give a final answer:
    The statistics show, which is corroborated by EU statistics, that in Scandinavia half of the convicted gang-rapists are muslim. The statistics you looked at are for Sweden only, and they contain numbers for all immigrants, not specifically muslim immigrants. You would have had to look at EU statistics for Danish and Norwegian numbers to get the whole picture.
    Reception of immigrants could always be better, here in the UK things are really bad and getting worse when it comes to assimilation. That however does not explain the differences between different groups of immigrants. Chinese immigrants e.g. are less likely to commit rape than people born in the UK. No, the conclusion is undeniable that islam and islamic culture in many countries fosters men in the belief that they have a right to subjugate women, and that kaffir women are fair prey.
    As to slavery it’s simple. If you claim everything in the quran is true than it’s also true that a man is allowed to buy a 9 year old child and have as much sex with her as he wants. Simple as that.
    As for Aisha, first of all there is no way of saying that it was cultural norm to have sex with children in Muhammad’s time, since their is no satisfactory historical evidence of this. You can search all over the internet but you will only find claims that it was norm, no historical evidence in way of reliable sources. The ”proof” people use is that there was no outrage at the time. We don’t know that though, there are no sources to prove that. So – Muhammad may have been just as much the norm as today’s pedophiles. There is however proof, studies of skeletons from that age, that girls were not more mature and physically developed at nine then than they are now. So Aishah was a child, not a young woman. To fuck a 9 year old is rape and pedophilia. That she became prom-queen of the world she knew is certain to have pleased her, that doesn’t make the marriage advantageous from a grown up perspective. Aisha is a perfect example of the Stockholm syndrome, and that people today would see that as a rolemodel for women is just sad and disgusting. Sorry.
    As to rape and beating within marriage, we’ll just have to disagree. Islam via the quran encourages men to strike their wives. It curses women who would ever dare deny their husbands sex, and most muslim countries have no law to forbid marital rape and violence, due to the quran.
    When I wrote coloured I ment arabs too, since they have been racially discriminated against in western cultures too. Most muslims are non-white. Yes, there is a lot of ethnical discrimination, it is horrid. However:
    I saw the news, this man belonging to a discriminated nomad tribe in Saudi. He was sitting in a tent complaining about structural discrimination, saying that denying one group rights on structural grounds is disgusting and an abomination. Along the walls were his four wives, in niqab, and when the journalist asked one of them a question the husband, who ”hated discrimination” said she wasn’t allowed to answer since a woman’s voice is awrah… That is islam as I see it – not only misogynist, but the worst kind of hypocrites.
    I say it again: The day when the muslim majority stands up and and unanimously claim that all people are equal before god, equal before each other, equal in rights and obligations in all aspects of life and before the law – the day when all muslim nations sign the UN bill of humans rights – the day when all muslims in favour of polygamy claim that it is self evident that the marriage contract then must be equal granting wife and husband alike the exact same status in marriage and the exact same right to marry up to three more people – the day when a majority of muslims see a person burn the quran and unanimously state “I am disgusted by the act, but I am willing to die for your right to perform it” – that’s the day when some of your arguments above become valid
    I wish you a pleasant day, and thank you very much for an interesting discussion. Please come back, and talk to me some more when you feel like it!

  18. Hmm. Well Fiona I Know for a fact that Aisha had originally been engaged to another man prior to her marriage with Hadhrat Muhammad [SAW]. So it was completely normal for them. Having spouses ,either male or female, being way older or younger than you was not much of an issue at that time. One example is that Muhammad [SAW] was 15 years younger than his first wife Khadijah [RA] and many of his later wives like Sawda and Zaynab ibn Khuzayma were still at least a decade older than him. There is even a tradition [hadith] where a 15/16 year old companion named Jabar tells the Prophet he has married a matron who was older than him.

    People had a lower life expectancy back then. I once read [can’t remember exactly where] that girls would marry at the age of 12 in Egypt.

    And Islam actually highly encourages people to get married early. And this encouragement is also applied to young males. The whole concept of a teenager is new to us.

    As for the claim that the Prophet was a pedophile, that sounds strange to me. If it was bad I am sure Muslim historians would have wanted to hide this fact. And had that been the case then the Prophet would have consummated his marriage with Aisha when she was 6 when their marriage was contracted but the fact that he displayed it till she was 9 does show his consideration [some girls do actually start to mature at 9].

    And the Prophet’s daughters all married young too. And he loved them, despite coming from a misogynistic society that used to bury daughters alive.

  19. Hi!
    A lot of people were engaged when they were babies, up until the 18th century that was common among royalty in Europe too.
    However, the difference is in consummation. The marriages weren’t consummated until later. Having a spouse that is way older than you is just fine – as long as we are not talking about children! A 30 year old voluntarily marrying a 90 year old is ok by me.. 🙂

    There is no independent, historically satisfactory proof that it was the norm for elderly men to consummate marriage with 9 year olds during Mauhammad’s day. There are almost no primary sources at all from Muhammad’s day. There is simply no proof.

    I have read sources that claim that Muhammad practiced thighing with Aishah when she was six, and that this is still done in many muslim countries that allow men to marry pre pubertal girls. The norm is obviously to wait until the girl has her menses to have full intercourse. Of course an old man thighing a 6 year old is proof he is a pedophile, just like fucking a 9 year old is proof he is a pedophile. “To start to mature” does not mean one is not a child. A sexually healthy man is not, and has never been, sexually attracted to a six year old.

    If a 60 year old woman bought a 6,7, 9 year old boy from traffickers, married him in some cultish ceremony,and forced herself upon him sexually that would be disgusting wouldn’t it? His being too young to understand what is happening wouldn’t make it better…

    The important thing however is not what some old man did more than a 1000 years ago. What’s important is what people do today, and what kind of actions we condemn today.

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